Curse

Deathqueen · Jan 23, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Just think as they add more and more classes, eventually you're just not going to be able to be good at stopping but a few. Just gonna have to get used to you will no longer be uber elite, something is going to pound you silly (monks included). It was actually fun for a change not having to spend the entire battle trying to kill a monk. Glad to see Assassins have a monk killer ability.

I also don't think Anet balances the game based on what happens in 4x4 events. Especially random which is just that, so, random anything can win given the right settings. I saw so many A/W full teams and Ritual teams over the weekend it was funny. I still wish they would work on some kind of grouping que for random arenas. At least make a monk/ritual que seperate from the other ques so there is at least and/or only one monk/ritual per team.
Some of these battles go on forever when you have 2 healers on both teams and I've even seen a 3 on 3 healers on both teams.

Teh Monkeys · Jan 23, 2006, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

As a whole, when compared to the daze abilities of other classes it's beyond overpowered. It's not hard at all to "spam" the skill, christ I watched multiple times as it was used on me, assassin would switch and use it right again on the next guy. Easy as hell, to no cost at all to the assassin. Could use a longer recharge time or having to interrupt a spell if nothing else.

Rangers are also getting a new dazed elite in chapter 2. Non conditional. And rangers can bury the dazed under a wall of conditions almost as fast as your average assassin.

Setting of a combo chain with multiple 10 energy skills takes up HORRIBLE amounts of energy, even if you use zealous daggers. It's not something that can be spammed very often. 2 or 3 times and your average assassin is out of commision.

And there's the problem: they pack one hell of a punch against unsuspecting targets, but they have no staying power, horrible dps, horrible defenses and even worse self heals. Arena assassins are dangerous in the first 20 seconds of a fight, and after they land their initial spike(s), they'll be crawling back to their healers or begging for a rez.

pagansaint · Jan 23, 2006, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I really think the problem isn't going to be any of the Assassin skills. The only one, as has been mentioned is Temple Strike. But as time goes on people will adapt and take it as a given and switch some skills and be able to counter it.

Get over it, the meta-game is changing.

The real problem is going to be the use of those skills when combined with other classes' combo skills. I'll take a few examples from each right fast:

Mesmer: Fragility, yes it has been reduced in power, yes it has been stopped as a FotM. But, but, when combined with skills that cause a condition and deal damage it becomes a problem again. Not to mention the enchant removal available from the two classes. And this would be a perfect class to form a Power Block caster shutdown build with.

Monk: like a warrior this combination benefits PvP mostly with the smiting line. Strength of Honor, Judge's Insight, Holy Strike. Definitely not a nice combination when you take into account 4 pips of energy regain, knocking them to 3 if they use Strength of Honor. They also have a skill that allows them to use Holy Strike for massive spike damage when combined with a relatively short chain.

Ranger: Serpent's Quickness drops their skills recharge times to around 8 seconds per chain. Top that off with Ranger primary with Expertise to reduce cost to 5 or less and using Zealous weapons. Not to mention throwing Tiger's Fury and other support skills that have been relegated to gimmicky or specialized Warrior templates.

Elementalist: This is the class that will allow the Assassin to have great armor with using only 2 skill slots and the energy to actually efficiently maintain that armor. Kinetic Armor and Stone Daggers. All you have to do is use 5 energy every 7-8 seconds. Vulnerable to enchant stripping but when used with the teleporting shouldn't have a huge problem with being killed. Ever. Or maybe they will be used for a quick PBAoE spike then recall out to recharge and be healed.

Necro: Much less obvious, and along the same lines as what the Assassin can accomplish by itself is total condition spam. But akin to the Virulence Warrior, the assassin needs only one skill to start the conditions. Combine this with shadow step and a few other high damage Assassin skills you have a VERY lethal quick strike pressure build. Such as an AoE condition pressure build, using A/Me and A/N to blaze in cast Fevered Dreams then throw Virulence and other conditions around, then recall. Not to mention Rigor Mortis to stop evade stances/enchants and Plague Touch to remove Blind.

Warrior: The problem can be two fold here. Strength as a Warrior primary with the dagger skills used will hurt, ALOT. And now, scariest and most deadly, we finally have a use for Flourish. Energy based, 12 second recharge time attacks benefiting from Strength. The only thing holding this back is the lack of max energy with a Warrior primary. Except it works to recharge skills at 0 attribute points, which means a A/W can use it still gain a small bit of energy, one per skill recharged, still enabling an A/W to spam their skills near indefinitely if they have a battery necro nearby.

Ritualist: Basically the Weapon Spells will be the main problem with them adding high end burst damage via Splinter Weapon, 5-41 AoE damage on next attack, or smaller but probably more versatile and more enduring DPS with Brutal Weapon or the life stealing one. Time will tell with the Ritualist but I don't think it will be near as deadly as the other class combinations other than Monk.

yenhungc · Jan 23, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

hey man do you forget the skill-------- i will surive, as they give you much condition they help you to heal up, so what is the problem after all????

Weezer_Blue · Jan 24, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

They are balanced, in most aspects. Is there any other class so easy to counter? All you have to do is make one attack miss and the rest of the chain fails. That's why temple strike isn't overpowered: Make the lead miss and it's just a worthless spot on your bar. Since no one has UAS for either of the new classes, I really doubt you can make a lot of decisions. There are plenty of counters to both, especially one so easy as a melee class.

Griffon · Jan 24, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Hey, over the weekend I messed around with the assassin profession and came up with a build I like to call the 7 second killer. Here are some videos of my experiences:

(Warrior + Monk)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin

(Dual Assassins)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin2

(Ranger + Mesmer)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin3

(Mesmer + War + Necro)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin4

Xia · Jan 24, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

They aren't overpowered.

They are balanced.

They one of, if not the easiest, classes to shutdown and kill.

With their ability to attack 2.5x faster than sword/axe warriors they die 2.5x faster to empathy, spiteful spirit, price of failure. Infact, they can die as fast as 3 seconds to them. So if the assassin doesn't pay attention and stop attacking and have someone remove the hexes or remove them themselves it's dead assasssin.

IF they do stop attacking with no way to remove then you jsut took them out of combat. They can no longer do anything.

Shackles also owns them. Any skills that make them miss own them.
Sympathetic visage and them not paying attention can shut down their teams monks!

Assassins are very powerful. They are also melee with weak armor and less and worser self-heals and keep alive skills than any other class has. Plus the best damage dealing assassins have access to no skills that keep them alive.

You just have to learn to play. They are really balanced in how they are so easy to shutdown. I can't say the same for ritualists.

My build to 118dmg assassin: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=112042
The only assassins that aren't easily shut down don't do a whole lot of damage/disruption.

Temple strike isn't overpowered. Skull Crack is underpowered. Maybe Temple Striek could use being changed to dual attack and having each hit do one of the conditions, but that's it.
Also aparently there is a bug with twisting fangs doing a double fragility hit. But that's a bug if it's true.

Also flourish is still bad considering it has a 1 second cast time.

pagansaint · Jan 24, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

The Way of the Fox skill allows your next attack to hit no matter what. That is a built in counter to stances and such.

Now take that and Wild Blow. Bye bye evade stances, you just hit for a critical, and now you can hit them with your chain.

And conditions are very easily removed, especially on your melee fighters, since they are the bulk of your damage dealers.

EDIT: And who would target a A/W for interruption for the CHANCE to hit a 1s cast spell? And 1s of casting compared to 5 or 6 of waiting for your skills to recharge.... Hmm lets think that one through...

Rikimaru · Jan 24, 2006, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griffon

Hey, over the weekend I messed around with the assassin profession and came up with a build I like to call the 7 second killer. Here are some videos of my experiences:

(Warrior + Monk)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin

(Dual Assassins)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin2

(Ranger + Mesmer)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin3

(Mesmer + War + Necro)
http://media.putfile.com/GW-Assassin4

If anyone didn't notice, he was able to go psychotic spamming attacks because he was a ranger primary with zealous daggers.

R/A very likely are overpowered. But not A/?
Actually, all of the same counters still apply, and he was fighting idiots. So maybe they arent either.

Xia · Jan 24, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

heck no.

Assassisn can gain 4 energy per attack(you'll average 2.5 when built right), making 5 energy skilsl cost 1, and quickly gaining their max energy back after a few hits.

R/A makes 5 energy skills cost 2, and only have 3 energy regen bars, and they can't use assassin runes.

Assassin primary is definantly better for doing daggers/crit. Keep in mind critical eye is a BUFF not enchantment. IT can't be shattered, stripped, anything. IT's isntant cast. With 12 crit you can have it always on. It's energy cost is nothing considering how much you gain from it.

ALSO that guy had a teamate putting SoH and judge's insight on him. From what i saw the build wasn't very impressive damage wise.

Rikimaru · Jan 24, 2006, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

The Way of the Fox skill allows your next attack to hit no matter what. That is a built in counter to stances and such.

Now take that and Wild Blow. Bye bye evade stances, you just hit for a critical, and now you can hit them with your chain.

And conditions are very easily removed, especially on your melee fighters, since they are the bulk of your damage dealers.

If you take 2 different skills just to remove stances, you're either going to have to give up attacks, defence, or shadow stepping.

Phades · Jan 24, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xia

heck no.

Assassisn can gain 4 energy per attack, mkaing 5 energy skilsl cost 1, and quickly gaining their max energy back after a few hits.

R/A makes 5 energy skills cost 2, and only have 3 energy regen bars, and they can't use assassin runes.

Assassin primary is definantly better for doing daggers/crit. Keep in mind critical eye is a BUFF not enchantment. IT can't be shattered, stripped, anything. IT's isntant cast. With 12 crit you can have it always on. It's energy cost is nothing considering how much you gain from it.

The bonus energy from the crits does not happen that often. Expertise reduction happens all the time. Id go with a 5e cost reduced to 1e cost after expertise and zealous mod any time opposed to randomly getting 3e back roughly 10% of the time.

Rikimaru · Jan 24, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xia

heck no.

Assassisn can gain 4 energy per attack(you'll average 2.5 when built right), making 5 energy skilsl cost 1, and quickly gaining their max energy back after a few hits.

R/A makes 5 energy skills cost 2, and only have 3 energy regen bars, and they can't use assassin runes.

Assassin primary is definantly better for doing daggers/crit. Keep in mind critical eye is a BUFF not enchantment. IT can't be shattered, stripped, anything. IT's isntant cast. With 12 crit you can have it always on. It's energy cost is nothing considering how much you gain from it.

ALSO that guy had a teamate putting SoH and judge's insight on him. From what i saw the build wasn't very impressive damage wise.

The only way and assassin is capable if gaining 4 energy on a hit is if they had Critical Eye active, Zealous daggers equipped, and hit with that roughly16% chance critical that recovers energy (criticals from weapon mastery apparently don't give energy).

pagansaint · Jan 24, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Actually all you need is one skill. Rigor Mortis. That cuts through everything.

But back to what I posted originally, actually you are only using one skill slot for stance counter, Way of the Fox, since Wild Blow is an attack, which should be recharged by the end of your chain enabling it to be used again for more damage. Hence you only lose one slot. To counter something that stops your damage. Fair Trade.

Xia · Jan 24, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

The bonus energy from crits happens alot if you build that way, which you should do if you are planning alot of energy.

I have done 10 crits in a row rarely, and 6 in a row often with the build i linked.

Adn yes rikimaru, and with zealous that's 1 per hit ALWAYS. And double striking is 2 attacks in the time of 1. Assassin attacks once per second.
So that's 2 energy a second from double striking, up to 4 per second.
Even with jsut 16 daggers, no locust strike, your double strike chance is 32%. Consider that 32% chance to gain at least 2 energy from a normal attack and 32% chance to gain 8 energy from a normal attack.
When you play an assassin see for yourself. 2-5 and you're at 15-max energy on average. That's just 3 seconds out of your attacking, less so if you use something like frenzy.
There are so many ways to get energy with assassin, and at the same time lose it if someone sympathetic visage and/or spirit shackles you.

Seriously, what is the point in doing a bunch of damage if you run out of energy right away? Your build is useless if you have no energy.

There are many ways to insure hits.. and many ways for the enemy to insure your insure to hits don't work too.

Griffon · Jan 24, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xia

heck no.

Assassisn can gain 4 energy per attack(you'll average 2.5 when built right), making 5 energy skilsl cost 1, and quickly gaining their max energy back after a few hits.

R/A makes 5 energy skills cost 2, and only have 3 energy regen bars, and they can't use assassin runes.

Assassin primary is definantly better for doing daggers/crit. Keep in mind critical eye is a BUFF not enchantment. IT can't be shattered, stripped, anything. IT's isntant cast. With 12 crit you can have it always on. It's energy cost is nothing considering how much you gain from it.

ALSO that guy had a teamate putting SoH and judge's insight on him. From what i saw the build wasn't very impressive damage wise.

Actually without SoH and judges on me I can still kill a target in 6-8 seconds, this way just makes it quicker. Ranger primary imo was much better than assassin, sure you get more crit hits etc, but this way I can spam combos without worry.

At less than half health and with 2 21 damage spirits on me I was able to kill an assassin full hp before he could take me down

http://media.putfile.com/Assassin-Dead

Turbo Wombat · Jan 24, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

They're far harder to kill and have far FAR higher dps than a warrior.

Harder to kill? You have to be kidding. I was shredding them all weekend with my mesmers/necros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

They can pile five conditions on an enemy with one combo. They have a skill which lets attacks bypass stances and defences.
Basically an attacked caster is dead after one combo, and a warrior is bleeding, crippled, blind, deep-wound, and dazed, and there's not much one can do about it. Oh yeah, and add poison to that if it's an A/R.

You must have seen the death combo I developed

. Anyways, it was 6 conditions and I wasn't even using Apply Poison. Yes, I was able to kill most classes in one combo if everything went flawlessly, but at the expense of nearly all my energy (could only pull it off with the Zodiac/energy armor), so it took me a bit to recoup before I could really even fight again. Also, if the combo failed due to healing/blocking/no knockdown, I had to retreat and come back for another pass after I recouped. Personally, I think the high dps/condition hit and run tactics that good assassins have to use to be effective is not only fitting of the class, but fairly balanced as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

They have good self-heal.

Their heals in my opinion are some of the worst in the game, rivaled only by Aura of Resotration. They either put you next to an enemy (bad) have a realitively long delay after casting (very bad) or rely on the pure luck that you are going to make a critical hit (bad again). The only R skill I used on my A/R was Troll Unguent because it was cheap and provided good healing on the run.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I don't really see why anyone would use a warrior any more, except as a pure damage sponge, when an A/R is far more lethal and harder to kill.

Not to worry. Good tanks are still hard to find and well valued. Also, the way assassins stay alive typically involves running/teleporting away from the enemy so they are most certianly not going to be able hold aggro and act as a tank. Since Warriors can stand their ground WHILE doing damage, there will allways be a good spot for them in my groups just so long as they can do their jobs properly

. Lets also not forget about some of the new skills that will come out with Factions that will most likely be tailor-made counters to the new classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PieXags

As a whole, I do not think assassins are overpowered. After reviewing them for a while I've come to one problem skill I think is pretty severly overpowered.

Temple Strike

It's an assassin elite skill that after following a single strike (a lead attack) interrupts, DAZES, and blinds an opponent for a set time. It only costs ten energy, and has only a twelve second recharge.

What the HELL is this? This is the skill I keep coming to. If I get killed by an assassin it's always because of this skill, no others. I don't give a damn if they hit me with an entire 4 line combo, I can take the damage, I can withstand the onslaught of normal attacks with the proper skillset, but this skill seems overpowered to me. Mainly because of the dazed condition it so easily spreads around.

Think about it---rangers and warriors can daze as well, rangers have concussion shot and warriors have skull crack. However, BOTH of these either have very high adrenaline or energy cost. For rangers it's 25 energy, for warriors it's 9 adrenaline. And BOTH skills require you to interrupt an enemy skill with it. This evens it out, being that dazed is one of the most powerful conditions out there, if not the most powerful (in my opinion).

I'm having trouble finding the thread and am kind of thinking it was removed/trimmed, but one of the posts covering the CGW preview of Factions had example skills that would be coming out for the old classes. One of the skills I remember reading about was a Ranger bow attack that dazed the target when it hit. Anyways, the conditions from Temple Strike only last for 7 seconds, compared to Skullcrack which is 15 seconds and Concussion Shot which can last up to 20 seconds. Yes, it is one of the nastier elites, but if you don't have a team that can cover you for 7 seconds, you may need to rethink your team build.

All-in-all, I think the assassins are fairly well balanced considering their limitations. If you want to complain about balance, I'd attack the Ritualist healers. Alone they are balanced, but throw a Boon Healer into the mix and it just becomes stupid. That, and since the binding rituals don't count as spells, it's kind of hard to shut them down if they are using anti-interrupt skills.

JR · Jan 24, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

This was a beta event for a reason, it's a test. It has become apparent that certain skills need looking at; Temple strike and Anguished Was Lingwah to name two. No doubt by the time it hits release things will be altered.

SaintGreg · Jan 24, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

A friend of mine likened the assassin as "The mesmers of melee", nevermind for a second that melee mesmers already exist from IW. They are very good at countering specific builds, and doing one thing and doing that well, but they aren't the omfg hax class that people thought they would be. I was pleasantly surprised and relieved that the new classes are actually quite well balanced for the most part, discounting a few bugs and tweaks that need to be made.

Assassins will be the king of orders when they come out. Under a 33% boost (say frenzy), and locust's fury we clocked about an average of around .5-.6 seconds per hit because of the double hits; orders and SoH along with rigor and/or some good enchantment stripping and a water ele will lead to some pretty high dps for ganking.

SpaceGh057 · Jan 25, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

My only problem with the Assassin, is that they have four energy regen, and, correct me if I'm wrong, but an armor rating slightly above the ranger? Maybe it's me, but, a Warrior, with slightly better armor, only has 2 energy regen, so among my first thoughts were that the Assassin should have worse armor or less regen...

I didn't have much time to play with them this weekend. Tournament.